The Hockey Hall of Pretty Good, Part 1 (And Eddie Shore Too!)
January 8th, 2011
We all know that Chris Osgood won his 400th game as a goalie recently and there has been some minor debates on whether or not he will make the Hall of Fame. In fact, it feels like every professional “analyst” thinks that he should and why not? The guy is in some fairly rarefied air with those 400 wins (it’s almost like the equivalent of 3,000 hits in baseball; reach it and you’re virtually guaranteed to get in), three Stanley Cups, and a career 2.49 GAA which is good for 24th all-time. On the surface, he has the stats to back up a HOF induction, but I just can’t get behind it. For me, Osgood was like Mike Vernon, John Vanbiesbrouck, and Tom Barrasso; good and fairly reliable goalies, but never guys who you feared or trusted completely.
And so this is the problem with the Hall of Fame; it’s filled with tons of guys who were very good and only a few who were great; it’s become the Hall of Pretty Good. For me, this devalues the great players when you have someone like Clark Gillies alongside someone like Bobby Orr. The Hall should be filled with guys who met some of the following criteria: they either dominated the league during their career, dominated their position, were feared by fans and players alike when your team faced him, or who you would pay money to go watch. That’s it. Besides his family and friends, has anyone ever plunked over their hard earned cash to go see Chris Osgood and his throwback helmet sit between the pipes? Did anyone ever think to themselves, “Oh no, Osgood’s in goal; we have ZERO chance to win this game?” I would bet that the answer is most likely no. And this could be applied to a TON of current Hall of Famers.
So, I want to boot out the current Hall of Fame inductees and re-elect members into it. I will go year by year and either kick a member out or keep him in. I’m going to focus mostly on players from the 1950′s on up and try to take a look at numbers in relation to the time, impact, and common sense.
Let’s start with 1961 since that was the year Maurice Richard was inducted.
1961
Maurice Richard
Milt Schmidt
Maurice Richard is a no-brainer. One of the all-time greats. Milt Schmidt is not a slam dunk. Being a Bruins fan, I want him in, but I need to be objective. Let’s look at his career.
He won two Stanley Cups (and probably would have won one or two more if not for the war) and also took home the Hart Trophy. During his 16 year career, he only finished in the top-10 in goals three times, assists four times, and total points five times. He was part of the feared Kraut Line and was respected by players and fans alike. In the end, though, I just don’t think he can be considered an all-time great. Very good, yes but not great. Sorry Milt.
Inducted: Maurice Richard
Kicked out: Milt Schmidt
1962
Harry Watson
Watson played 14 seasons, won five Stanley Cups, and that was about it. As a winger, he finished in the top-10 in goals twice and total points once. He never took home any individual hardware and while his Stanley Cup totals are impressive, I think it’s ridiculous to judge a player on Cups. Individuals don’t win Cups, teams do. Sorry Harry, but you are out.
Inducted: No one
Kicked out: Harry Watson
1963
A small HOF class this year that didn’t include any players from the 50′s, so yeah.
1964
See above.
1965
Bill Mosienko
Mosienko played 12 full seasons and was in the top 10 in either goals, assists, or points in seven of those seasons. That’s pretty good. He won a Lady Byng Trophy, but big deal. No Cups but whatever. He never lead the league in an meaningful category and I can’t believe that he was ever considered on of the premier right wingers of his generation. Heck, he was only named to two NHL All-Star 2nd Teams. Bill, you’re out.
Inducted: No one
Kicked out: Bill Mosienko
1966
Max Bentley
Butch Bouchard
Ted Kennedy
Elmer Lach
Ted Lindsay
A big class! First up, Max Bentley. I’ll admit to not knowing much about him, so his numbers are all I have. He played 12 seasons and finished in the top-10 in goals seven times, assists five times, and total points five times (finishing 1st twice); that is pretty impressive. Add in a Hart Trophy, a Lady Byng Trophy, and three Stanley Cups and you have a pretty good player. Great? I’m not sure, but his numbers are good. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and induct him in.
Next up is Bouchard. Defensemen are hard to properly evaluate because their contribution isn’t really measurable by statistics. He played 15 seasons and was named to to the NHL All-Star 1st Team three times and the 2nd Team once. He never won an individual awards and was never in the top-10 in any offensive categories. +/-, blocked shots and hits were not measured, so I have no idea about that stuff. I couldn’t find any anecdotal evidence that would suggest that Bouchard was a game changer or feared. Sadly, Bouchard is out.
Kennedy was a major part of five Stanley Cups (four in a row) and the winner of a Hart Trophy. He finished in the top-10 major offensive categories six times during 12 full seasons. Apparently he was a pretty good face-off guy, but that won’t get you into the new Hall of Fame. He’s a borderline guy and in my opinion, if I have to really think about it, you shouldn’t be in. The guys in the Hall should be obvious, no-doubt about it guys. Teeder is out.
Elmer Lach, I think, was one of the premier passers of his day. He played 13 (mostly) full seasons and finished in the top-10 in assists seven times, leading three times. He would also finish in the top-10 in goals three times and in total points six times, leading twice. He won the Art Ross and Hart Trophies to go along with three Stanley Cups. Three selections to the NHL All-Star 1st Team and two to the 2nd Team earn Lach an invite to the Hall. Welcome aboard, Elmer!
Finally there is “Terrible” Ted Lindsay. Ten times in the top-10 in goals, eight times for assists, and eight for total points, so he had the stats. He was feared by opponents and was a tough sonofagun (fourteen times in the top-10 for PIMs). He was also named to the NHL All-Star 1st Team eight times and the 2nd Team once. Oh, and an Art Ross Trophy. No brainer, he’s in.
Inducted: Max Bentley, Elmer Lach, and Ted Lindsay
Kicked out: Butch Bouchard and Ted Kennedy
Okay, that’s it for now. I’m interested in hearing what you all think about this. Agree? Disagree? Don’t give a damn?
In other news, for Christmas I received a book called Eddie Shore and That Old Time Hockey.
I am about 1/3 through it and can’t recommend it enough. It’s really cool reading about the crazy early days of hockey and how much punishment these dudes took on the ice.
Also, I picked up three more 10-11 OPC Legend cards today…
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You might want to revisit Teeder. If I were to throw out all Leafs but one, the one I would keep is Kennedy. He was the soul of the greatest teams the Leafs ever had.
Those teams played defense-first hockey. Think of any team Lemaire has ever coached. It dampened scoring numbers and that’s the sort of thing that drives awards.
Kennedy was the toughest one for me this go around. I’m going to hold firm on him for now but maybe the Veterans Committee will see fit to get him in.
I think you undervalued Butch Bouchard because of his low offensive stats. He was considered as the best defenseman of the first 50 years of the Montreal Canadiens in the NHL.
I believe he is justly a Hall of famer.
Here is the only problem I have with this whole HOF debate. When people choose for the Hall, it becomes a completely subjective process. Should it be all about stats and performance, maybe but it isn’t. Should it be a popularity contest, no but it is. Should it take into account a players actions off the ice, probably but it doesn’t always.
That’s what happens. Some people will agree, others won’t. The problem with only allowing the elite players to be in the Hall and removing or not allowing the role type players or the players that may have contributed in other ways is that you will end up alienating large groups of players and fans alike. Think about this for a minute. If only elite players were in, and I’m being generous here, you would have less than 50 members of the Hall. Why? Because the question then becomes what makes an elite player? How many times does a Wayne Gretzky, or Mario Lemieux come along? How many times has their been a Bobby Orr type player or a Gordie Howe? How many Sawchuck’s or Rocket’s or Worsley’s have their been? The answer…one of each. These guys are the elite. Everyone else is just that…everyone else.
From a fan’s standpoint, are you going to want to go to a museum for sports elite, knowing the their may or may not be any of the players that you grew up watching, idolizing, or trying to emulated every time you played pond hockey? I doubt many people would. So should the HOF be only for the elite? Maybe not. But should it be for the best players at their positions at the time they played? I think that is a more reasonable selection process.
Oh, and you put Terrible Ted in and also kicked him out.
I agree with you that the HOF should be for players who were among the greatest at their position for their time; that was one of the criteria that I am applying. I mean, take Max Bentley. If you were to take the whole history of hockey, where does he fall? Not in the top 10, probably not even in the top 50. But during his career he was considered one of the best.
When I go to a Hall of Fame I want to see the very best. I feel that there are a group of guys in the HOF who not only are not the elite of their position but not even the elite of their position during their playing days.
I don’t know if you read Bill Simmons, but he had an idea to fix the Baseball Hall of Fame which was to make it a pyramid and players were inducted into different levels. The top level had like ten guys, then the next down was twenty-five or whatever. And guys could move up and down depending on new talent that comes along. I actually think it’s a pretty good idea as it would pay honor to the very good players of the NHL but also recognizing the truly great.
Actually, retract that last statement. I thought it said Ted Lindsay twice but I can’t read good.
nice post. interesting to see your opinions. also nice to see a Hall without Glen Anderson, Clark Gilies, Bernie Federko, Grant Fuhr, etc….
[...] « The Hockey Hall of Pretty Good, Part 1 (And Eddie Shore Too!) [...]
[...] onto my ongoing Hall of Fame musings. The first two installments can be found here: 1961-1966 [...]
[...] 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 [...]
[...] 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 1974-1976 [...]
[...] 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 1974-1976 1977-1978 [...]
[...] you want to look at past classes, you can see them here: 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 1974-1976 1977-1978 1979-1980 [...]
[...] 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 1974-1976 1977-1978 1979-1980 1981 1982-1984 [...]
[...] 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 1974-1976 1977-1978 1979-1980 1981 1982-1984 1985-1986 [...]
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[...] 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 1974-1976 1977-1978 1979-1980 1981 1982-1984 1985-1986 1987-1988 [...]
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[...] 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 1974-1976 1977-1978 1979-1980 1981 1982-1984 1985-1986 1987-1988 1989-1990 1991-1992 [...]
[...] 1961-1966 1967-1970 1971-1973 1974-1976 1977-1978 1979-1980 1981 1982-1984 1985-1986 1987-1988 1989-1990 1991-1992 1993-1995 [...]
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